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Mechanical Traffic Signals
Posted by:
kmeehl
(---.hsd1.il.comcast.net)
Date: August 15, 2013 04:45AM
My boyfriend moved to Rogers Park recently, and on a walk to explore the neighborhood a few days ago, we came across a mechanical traffic signal at Jarvis and Ashland. Neither of us had ever encountered one before, and we were utterly delighted by the pronounced click of the lights switching. We were able to find an explanation of how the light works (http://bit.ly/4rWQTz), and how old it is (It's an Econolite brand signal, and is probably from around 1960), but we have some questions remaining that we haven't been able to answer for ourselves: Are mechanical lights common in Chicago? This light is bordering on antique. Why hasn't it been replaced by a lower-maintenance electronic model? Does it have historic significance? The light is at a relatively quiet residential intersection with very little traffic, which makes it stand out even more as a peculiar feature -- what was at this intersection when the light was first installed around 1960?
If anyone has information about operational mechanical traffic signals in Chicago, we are very eager to learn a little bit more about this! We are also curious to find out whether this specific signal has a story. Thank you in advance for your input!
-Nicole
If anyone has information about operational mechanical traffic signals in Chicago, we are very eager to learn a little bit more about this! We are also curious to find out whether this specific signal has a story. Thank you in advance for your input!
-Nicole
Re: Mechanical Traffic Signals
Posted by:
Mr Downtown
(---.c3-0.drb-ubr1.chi-drb.il.cable.rcn.com)
Date: August 15, 2013 04:20PM
In 1960, the intersection looked almost exactly like it does now, except for the mansard roof on the V-tone. The mailbox was painted red on top, and the trees were smaller. Well, there might have been some elms that were actually larger.
As for the mechanical controller, I think CDOT was still installing those well into the 1980s, maybe even the 1990s. You don't want anything unproven, unreliable, or intolerant of severe weather controlling traffic lights. If it's still working, and doesn't need to be tied into a synchronized signal system (like you see on Sheridan), there's no reason to replace it.
As for the mechanical controller, I think CDOT was still installing those well into the 1980s, maybe even the 1990s. You don't want anything unproven, unreliable, or intolerant of severe weather controlling traffic lights. If it's still working, and doesn't need to be tied into a synchronized signal system (like you see on Sheridan), there's no reason to replace it.
Re: Mechanical Traffic Signals
Posted by:
WayOutWardell
(63.226.79.---)
Date: August 15, 2013 06:34PM
The intersection of Marquette Rd. and Woodlawn Ave. has this type of signal.
Re: Mechanical Traffic Signals
Posted by:
Jeff_Weiner
(---.sub-75-249-94.myvzw.com)
Date: August 16, 2013 03:08PM
The City has about 500 intersections that still have electromechanical controllers, mainly due to budget constraints and the low priority rating for those intersections for modernization.
To correct Mr. Downtown, the City stopped installing this type of controller in the mid-1970's, and they are not exactly reliable, being prone to problems in cold weather. Parts are scarce, especially latch relays and time clocks to allow multiple dial operation. The upside of these is that they are just imprecise enough that red light cameras cannot be installed at intersections with electromechanical controllers. I can go into more detail, if you like, since I worked as a traffic engineer for the City until I took early retirement in 2010.
To correct Mr. Downtown, the City stopped installing this type of controller in the mid-1970's, and they are not exactly reliable, being prone to problems in cold weather. Parts are scarce, especially latch relays and time clocks to allow multiple dial operation. The upside of these is that they are just imprecise enough that red light cameras cannot be installed at intersections with electromechanical controllers. I can go into more detail, if you like, since I worked as a traffic engineer for the City until I took early retirement in 2010.
Re: Mechanical Traffic Signals
Posted by:
WayOutWardell
(---.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net)
Date: January 27, 2014 05:20PM
Jeff,
I see what you mean re signal problems in cold weather...the electromechanical one at the end of my block has been stuck on a green light for N/S traffic for the better part of two hours.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/27/2014 06:43PM by WayOutWardell.
I see what you mean re signal problems in cold weather...the electromechanical one at the end of my block has been stuck on a green light for N/S traffic for the better part of two hours.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/27/2014 06:43PM by WayOutWardell.
Re: Mechanical Traffic Signals
Posted by:
Jeff_Weiner
(---.sub-70-194-65.myvzw.com)
Date: January 27, 2014 10:08PM
WayOutWardell Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Jeff,
> I see what you mean re signal problems in cold
> weather...the electromechanical one at the end of
> my block has been stuck on a green light for N/S
> traffic for the better part of two hours.
Yep! Tis the season for stuck EM controllers.
One group of intersections that received the last new EM controllers in the 70's were the group controlling Central, Milwaukee, NW Highway, and Foster. They gave Electricity many gray hairs in cold weather, even with big incandescent lights being installed in the cabinets. As some big projects replaced older electronic controllers along Western, the Signal Shop refurbished some older electronic controllers and replaced the electromechanical ones there. The upshot was this last bunch had been manufactured by Marbelite, which had been a good maker of traffic signal equipment, and they promptly went out of business after the City took possesion of the machines.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/05/2016 03:15AM by Jeff_Weiner.
-------------------------------------------------------
> Jeff,
> I see what you mean re signal problems in cold
> weather...the electromechanical one at the end of
> my block has been stuck on a green light for N/S
> traffic for the better part of two hours.
Yep! Tis the season for stuck EM controllers.
One group of intersections that received the last new EM controllers in the 70's were the group controlling Central, Milwaukee, NW Highway, and Foster. They gave Electricity many gray hairs in cold weather, even with big incandescent lights being installed in the cabinets. As some big projects replaced older electronic controllers along Western, the Signal Shop refurbished some older electronic controllers and replaced the electromechanical ones there. The upshot was this last bunch had been manufactured by Marbelite, which had been a good maker of traffic signal equipment, and they promptly went out of business after the City took possesion of the machines.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/05/2016 03:15AM by Jeff_Weiner.
Re: Mechanical Traffic Signals
Posted by:
davey7
(---.dsl.chcgil.ameritech.net)
Date: January 30, 2014 04:17PM
Jeff - I remember hearing that the CoC had a smaller traffic department than Evanston in the 90's. Is that a true statement?
Re: Mechanical Traffic Signals
Posted by:
Jeff_Weiner
(---.sub-70-194-71.myvzw.com)
Date: January 30, 2014 10:06PM
davey7 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Jeff - I remember hearing that the CoC had a
> smaller traffic department than Evanston in the
> 90's. Is that a true statement?
Well, the ranks of electricians and traffic engineers has shrunk over the years, with unfilled positions eliminated to "save money". When I started in 1983, I was the sixth person added to the Signal Section, and observed that, as long as we had ay least 6 people in the section, everything worked ok (we even did design work in-house). Once we dipped below that magic number, things didn't get done. I don't know the staffing with regard to Evanston, but they have fewer signals than Chicago, so it takes less to deal with them, and they may use consultants more than we used to do. I reached a point in 2010 where I could retire early, but had no young engineers to take my place, and my last supervisor would have been happy for me to daty until he retired [u]in 2018![/u]
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/05/2016 03:16AM by Jeff_Weiner.
-------------------------------------------------------
> Jeff - I remember hearing that the CoC had a
> smaller traffic department than Evanston in the
> 90's. Is that a true statement?
Well, the ranks of electricians and traffic engineers has shrunk over the years, with unfilled positions eliminated to "save money". When I started in 1983, I was the sixth person added to the Signal Section, and observed that, as long as we had ay least 6 people in the section, everything worked ok (we even did design work in-house). Once we dipped below that magic number, things didn't get done. I don't know the staffing with regard to Evanston, but they have fewer signals than Chicago, so it takes less to deal with them, and they may use consultants more than we used to do. I reached a point in 2010 where I could retire early, but had no young engineers to take my place, and my last supervisor would have been happy for me to daty until he retired [u]in 2018![/u]
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/05/2016 03:16AM by Jeff_Weiner.
Re: Mechanical Traffic Signals
Posted by:
davey7
(---.dsl.chcgil.ameritech.net)
Date: January 31, 2014 04:36PM
I think Evanston had like 11 people during the 90's, partially to make sure signals were synchronized and met current traffic needs. So, thanks, you pretty much confirmed what I heard.
Re: Mechanical Traffic Signals
Posted by:
Jeff_Weiner
(---.sub-70-194-72.myvzw.com)
Date: January 31, 2014 10:44PM
davey7 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think Evanston had like 11 people during the
> 90's, partially to make sure signals were
> synchronized and met current traffic needs. So,
> thanks, you pretty much confirmed what I heard.
Chicago may have had more, overall, until the early 2000's. I know after 2005 the engineering side lost people. There are now just two engineers to actively handle the traffic engineering side for 2905 signalized intersections. I would elaborate, but too many might think I have an axe to grind (which I do!).
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think Evanston had like 11 people during the
> 90's, partially to make sure signals were
> synchronized and met current traffic needs. So,
> thanks, you pretty much confirmed what I heard.
Chicago may have had more, overall, until the early 2000's. I know after 2005 the engineering side lost people. There are now just two engineers to actively handle the traffic engineering side for 2905 signalized intersections. I would elaborate, but too many might think I have an axe to grind (which I do!).
Re: Mechanical Traffic Signals
Posted by:
Eugenekwilliams
(59.97.54.---)
Date: July 20, 2015 04:09AM
The normal function of traffic lights requires sophisticated control and coordination to ensure that traffic moves as smoothly and safely as possible and that pedestrians are protected when they cross the roads. A variety of different control systems are used to accomplish this, ranging from simple clockwork mechanisms to sophisticated computerized control and coordination systems that self-adjust to minimize delay to people using the road.
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Re: Mechanical Traffic Signals
Posted by:
margaretmbrooks
(117.247.203.---)
Date: July 24, 2015 03:57AM
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Re: Mechanical Traffic Signals
Posted by:
Vern H
(---.hsd1.il.comcast.net)
Date: July 26, 2015 03:49PM
I remember reading somewhere years back that the city would broadcast an ultrasonic "beep" every so often for the signals to stay synchronized. Is this still true?
Re: Mechanical Traffic Signals
Posted by:
Jeff_Weiner
(---.sub-70-194-99.myvzw.com)
Date: July 26, 2015 04:10PM
Vern H Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I remember reading somewhere years back that the
> city would broadcast an ultrasonic "beep" every so
> often for the signals to stay synchronized. Is
> this still true?
Actually, it's not ultrasonic. You call in to the Load Dispatcher on you radio, and request a time tone for a given cycle length. Chicago is one of the few US cities that uses an absolute time base. This consists of 8 different cycles" 65 sec., 75 sec. 85 sec., 90 sec., 100 sec., 105 sec., 110 sec., and 130 sec. The Load Dispatcher selects the cycle through an old-fashioned rotary telephone dial, which connects the desired cycle output of an electronic clock called a time-base coordinator to a tone generator for two cycles. The tone is the zero mark, and the electrician in the field sets the start of the signal cycle, the offset as it's called, from that.
This used to be done with mechanical timing dials, but the TBC provides a better, more-accurate time base.
You pick these things up working for 27+ years as a traffic engineer for the City of Chicago!
-------------------------------------------------------
> I remember reading somewhere years back that the
> city would broadcast an ultrasonic "beep" every so
> often for the signals to stay synchronized. Is
> this still true?
Actually, it's not ultrasonic. You call in to the Load Dispatcher on you radio, and request a time tone for a given cycle length. Chicago is one of the few US cities that uses an absolute time base. This consists of 8 different cycles" 65 sec., 75 sec. 85 sec., 90 sec., 100 sec., 105 sec., 110 sec., and 130 sec. The Load Dispatcher selects the cycle through an old-fashioned rotary telephone dial, which connects the desired cycle output of an electronic clock called a time-base coordinator to a tone generator for two cycles. The tone is the zero mark, and the electrician in the field sets the start of the signal cycle, the offset as it's called, from that.
This used to be done with mechanical timing dials, but the TBC provides a better, more-accurate time base.
You pick these things up working for 27+ years as a traffic engineer for the City of Chicago!
Re: Mechanical Traffic Signals
Posted by:
Jeff_Weiner
(---.sub-70-194-106.myvzw.com)
Date: September 20, 2015 10:51PM
There are two locations on Foster, at Throop and at Kostner, that still have electromechanical controllers. Central Park may still have one, too.
xx
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Re: Mechanical Traffic Signals
Posted by:
Jeff_Weiner
(---.sub-70-194-97.myvzw.com)
Date: January 06, 2016 12:37AM
Back to top.
Re: Mechanical Traffic Signals
Posted by:
Jeff_Weiner
(---.sub-70-194-98.myvzw.com)
Date: January 30, 2016 03:37AM
Kerclunk!
