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Ghost Stories
Posted by:
Bruce
(---.dsl.emhril.sbcglobal.net)
Date: October 28, 2008 05:23AM
It's Halloween time, and though I don't really get into the whole Chicago ghost hunter thing, I do have some interest since I am a local historian and researcher. I while back I came across a book on Chicago haunts by Ursula Bielski that mentioned a new discovery on Resurrection Mary. I've tried to contact her through E-mail, but have yet to get a response. In any case, I have a few ghost cases that I want to suck the wind out of. No - I don't really make it my practice to debunk stuff like this, but I would like to get this information out there to people like you all who care about local history, and perhaps set the record straight - well a bit anyway.
Ursula wrote an article on the web stating in summation that Ressurection Mary is the ghost of 12-year-old Anna Norkus. The connection of Anna Norkus to Resurrection Mary was solidified through the rigorous research of Frank Andrejasich of Summit, Illinois. Frank had written Ursula a letter in 1997 that explained his version of Anna Norkus' fate, and eventually they met personally and Frank relayed his research that went into Ursula's Chicago Haunts book. . The following text is taken in part form the article written by Ursula Bielski on the www.ghostvillage.com web page.
<I>"In August of 1994, Andrejasich's brother had sent Frank a newspaper clipping telling the tale of Resurrection Mary, and, asking around at coffee after Mass one Sunday, Frank found that there were many local versions of the famous tale -- and many "candidates" for the role -- especially at his own St. Joseph parish, in the heart of Resurrection Mary country. Andrejasich was startled by the prevalence of the story in local memory -- and by the opinionated responses to his often-asked question: who was she? As it turned out, one of Frank's church buddies was a man named Jake Palus, who turned out to be the younger brother of the now-infamous Jerry Palus. Jerry is believed by many hard-core Mary researchers to have been the phantom's first encounter; till the day he died, Jerry claimed to have danced with her "all night" in 1936 at the old Liberty Grove and Hall ballroom on 47th street, in the storied Brighton Park neighborhood.
After pondering the variety of accounts, combing early editions of the local papers, and checking with funeral directors and cemetery managers, Andrejasich came to believe that the ghost known as Resurrection Mary is the spiritual counterpart of the youngest of all the candidates: a 12-year-old girl named, surprisingly, Anna Norkus. Born in Cicero, Illinois in 1914, Norkus was given the name of Ona, Lithuanian for Anna. By the time she neared her teenage years, Anna had grown into a vivacious girl. Blonde and slim, she loved to dance, and it was her relentless begging that convinced her father, August, Sr., to take her to a dancehall for her 13th birthday. On the evening of July 20, 1927, father and daughter set out from their Chicago home at 5421 S. Neva for the famous O Henry Ballroom, accompanied by August's friend, William Weisner, and Weisner's date. On their drive home, at approximately 1:30 a.m., the travelers passed Resurrection Cemetery via Archer Avenue, turning east on 71st Street and then north on Harlem to 67th Street. There, the car careened and dropped into an unseen, 25-foot-deep railroad cut. Anna was killed instantly.
After the accident, her father, August Norkus was subject to devastating verbal abuse, even being told that Anna's death had been God's punishment for allowing the girl to go dancing at such a young age. In reality, the blame rested with the Chicago Streets Department, who had failed to post warning signs at the site of the cut. In fact, another death, that of Adam Levinsky, occurred at the same site the night after Anna's demise.
Between July 28th and September 29th, an inquest was held at Sobiesk's mortuary in adjacent Argo. Heading up the five sessions was Deputy Coroner Dedrich, the case reviewed by six jurors. The DesPlaines Valley News carried the story of the inquest.
Mary Nagode described to cousin Frank Andrejasich the sad procession that left the Norkus home on a certain Friday morning: First in line was Anna's older sister Sophie, followed by her older brother August, Jr. The pastor, altar boys, and a four-piece brass band preceded the casket, borne on a flatbed wagon with pallbearers on each side. Relatives and friends followed the grim parade for three blocks to the doors of St. Joseph's in Summit, where Anna had made her first communion only a year before.
Anna was scheduled for burial in one of three newly-purchased family lots at St. Casimir Cemetery, and it is here where Andrejasich found the "if" that may have led to an infamous afterlife for Anna : as the world-famous Resurrection Mary, or as Anna called herself, Marija.
Andrejasich discovered that, at the time of Anna's death, a man named Al Churas Jr., lived across the road from the gates of Resurrection Cemetery, in a large brick bungalow that was recently torn down as part of a subdivision development. Al's father was in charge of the gravediggers and was given the house to live in as part of his pay. In the mid-1920s, gravedigging was hard, manual labor, rewarded with low pay. Strikes were common. As Resurrection was one of the main Chicago cemeteries, the elder Churas was often sent to the cemeteries of striking gravediggers to secure the bodies of the unburied. Returning to Resurrection with a corpse in a wooden box, Churas' duty was to bury it temporarily until the strike ended and the body could be permanently interred in the proper lot. Because of poor coffin construction and the lack of refrigeration, a body could not be kept long, except in the ground. If the strike dragged on, identification at the time of relocation could be gruesomely difficult. Thus, reasons Andrejasich, if the workers at St. Casimir were striking on that July morning in 1927, it is quite possible that young Anna Norkus was silently whisked to a temporary interment at Resurrection, and that a rapid decomposition rendered her unidentifiable at the time of exhumation. The result? A mislaid corpse and a most restless eternity, if only one is willing to believe." </I>
Now there are a lot of issues with this story. First off, one would not drive north on Harlem from 71st in 1927, because it did not go through. And if it did, why would someone living on the 5400 block of Neva take 71st street home from Willow Springs anyway. Harlem avenue north of 63rd street and 63rd street east into Clearing was closed for sewer and water main work. This is what really happened as printed in the DesPlaines Valley News. I consolidated it a bit as it stretched over a few issues.
July 21st 1927 – Car accident takes life of 13 year old girl as car rolls over into old abandoned cut. A thirteen-year old girl was killed and five other members of an automobile party were injured, one perhaps fatally, last night, when in making a detour on Harlem avenue at 63rd street near the Community High School on their way to Clearing their machine ran into an old abandoned railroad cut and rolled over and over to the bottom. The dead girl is Anna Norkus, 5421 S. Neva, Archer Limits, who was crushed under the car and who was dead when taken out. Adam Levinski, 58 years old is at the Archer hospital with a badly fractured pelvis and with possible internal injuries. While the injury may prove fatal the physicians at the hospital say he has a good chance for recovery. August Norkus, father of the dead girl, incurred a broken colar bone which was set at the hospital. William Weisner and two girls Sophie Norkus, 16 years old and Loretta Gwozdz, 14, suffered minor injuries. All were treated at the Archer Hospital, Weisner staying over night and the girls being sent home. August Norkus and his two daughters were on their way with the others in Weisner's car to give bond for a man who had been arrested in Clearing. They came from the limits via Archer avenue to 63rd street, which was closed for the laying of water mains and sewer, and at Harlem they attempted to detour by riding south to 65th street. Passing 65th street in the darkness they ran into the old abandond cut, and at its edge their machine struck the guy wire of a telegraph pole so that it turned over and plunged down top first. Having passed 65th street the prarie flattens out into a smooth plateau and a few hundred feet farther on comes a steep drop as from a table’s edge to an old abandinded railroad cut, 25 feet deep. Summit police and County Highway Police and a number of volunteers were attracted to the scene and rescued the injured persons from the wrecked car. The body of the girl victim was taken to the mortuary of George A. Sobiesk whose ambulance had been called. An inquest was set for this afternoon. Mr. Sobiesk also will have charge of the funeral.
July 28th 1927 -Action was taken at the inquest held Thursday and Friday of last week at the Sobiesk mortuary in Argo to establish responsibility for the “death trap” at the 63rd and Harlem detour which on Wednesday night caused the immediate death of a young girl and the death on the following day of a man from Archer Limits. The girl victim was Anna Norkus and the man Adam Levinski, the latter passing away at Archer Hospital. Anna Norkus, a pupil of St. Joseph’s school, who had met with an instantaneous death at Harlem avenue and 66th street, when the automobile in which she was riding plunged into a deep pit, was buried from St. Joseph’s church Friday at 9 am. Burial took place at St. Casimir’s Lithuanian cemetery. The pastor, Rev Joseph A. Sehnke, celebrated the requiem high mass and preached the sermon in the church. The remains were escorted to the church and accompanied to the cemetery by the pastor and altar boys. May her soul rest in peace. The funeral was in charge of George Sobiesk.
Poor Mr. Andrejasich - he got the wrong Mary here!
Bruce
Ursula wrote an article on the web stating in summation that Ressurection Mary is the ghost of 12-year-old Anna Norkus. The connection of Anna Norkus to Resurrection Mary was solidified through the rigorous research of Frank Andrejasich of Summit, Illinois. Frank had written Ursula a letter in 1997 that explained his version of Anna Norkus' fate, and eventually they met personally and Frank relayed his research that went into Ursula's Chicago Haunts book. . The following text is taken in part form the article written by Ursula Bielski on the www.ghostvillage.com web page.
<I>"In August of 1994, Andrejasich's brother had sent Frank a newspaper clipping telling the tale of Resurrection Mary, and, asking around at coffee after Mass one Sunday, Frank found that there were many local versions of the famous tale -- and many "candidates" for the role -- especially at his own St. Joseph parish, in the heart of Resurrection Mary country. Andrejasich was startled by the prevalence of the story in local memory -- and by the opinionated responses to his often-asked question: who was she? As it turned out, one of Frank's church buddies was a man named Jake Palus, who turned out to be the younger brother of the now-infamous Jerry Palus. Jerry is believed by many hard-core Mary researchers to have been the phantom's first encounter; till the day he died, Jerry claimed to have danced with her "all night" in 1936 at the old Liberty Grove and Hall ballroom on 47th street, in the storied Brighton Park neighborhood.
After pondering the variety of accounts, combing early editions of the local papers, and checking with funeral directors and cemetery managers, Andrejasich came to believe that the ghost known as Resurrection Mary is the spiritual counterpart of the youngest of all the candidates: a 12-year-old girl named, surprisingly, Anna Norkus. Born in Cicero, Illinois in 1914, Norkus was given the name of Ona, Lithuanian for Anna. By the time she neared her teenage years, Anna had grown into a vivacious girl. Blonde and slim, she loved to dance, and it was her relentless begging that convinced her father, August, Sr., to take her to a dancehall for her 13th birthday. On the evening of July 20, 1927, father and daughter set out from their Chicago home at 5421 S. Neva for the famous O Henry Ballroom, accompanied by August's friend, William Weisner, and Weisner's date. On their drive home, at approximately 1:30 a.m., the travelers passed Resurrection Cemetery via Archer Avenue, turning east on 71st Street and then north on Harlem to 67th Street. There, the car careened and dropped into an unseen, 25-foot-deep railroad cut. Anna was killed instantly.
After the accident, her father, August Norkus was subject to devastating verbal abuse, even being told that Anna's death had been God's punishment for allowing the girl to go dancing at such a young age. In reality, the blame rested with the Chicago Streets Department, who had failed to post warning signs at the site of the cut. In fact, another death, that of Adam Levinsky, occurred at the same site the night after Anna's demise.
Between July 28th and September 29th, an inquest was held at Sobiesk's mortuary in adjacent Argo. Heading up the five sessions was Deputy Coroner Dedrich, the case reviewed by six jurors. The DesPlaines Valley News carried the story of the inquest.
Mary Nagode described to cousin Frank Andrejasich the sad procession that left the Norkus home on a certain Friday morning: First in line was Anna's older sister Sophie, followed by her older brother August, Jr. The pastor, altar boys, and a four-piece brass band preceded the casket, borne on a flatbed wagon with pallbearers on each side. Relatives and friends followed the grim parade for three blocks to the doors of St. Joseph's in Summit, where Anna had made her first communion only a year before.
Anna was scheduled for burial in one of three newly-purchased family lots at St. Casimir Cemetery, and it is here where Andrejasich found the "if" that may have led to an infamous afterlife for Anna : as the world-famous Resurrection Mary, or as Anna called herself, Marija.
Andrejasich discovered that, at the time of Anna's death, a man named Al Churas Jr., lived across the road from the gates of Resurrection Cemetery, in a large brick bungalow that was recently torn down as part of a subdivision development. Al's father was in charge of the gravediggers and was given the house to live in as part of his pay. In the mid-1920s, gravedigging was hard, manual labor, rewarded with low pay. Strikes were common. As Resurrection was one of the main Chicago cemeteries, the elder Churas was often sent to the cemeteries of striking gravediggers to secure the bodies of the unburied. Returning to Resurrection with a corpse in a wooden box, Churas' duty was to bury it temporarily until the strike ended and the body could be permanently interred in the proper lot. Because of poor coffin construction and the lack of refrigeration, a body could not be kept long, except in the ground. If the strike dragged on, identification at the time of relocation could be gruesomely difficult. Thus, reasons Andrejasich, if the workers at St. Casimir were striking on that July morning in 1927, it is quite possible that young Anna Norkus was silently whisked to a temporary interment at Resurrection, and that a rapid decomposition rendered her unidentifiable at the time of exhumation. The result? A mislaid corpse and a most restless eternity, if only one is willing to believe." </I>
Now there are a lot of issues with this story. First off, one would not drive north on Harlem from 71st in 1927, because it did not go through. And if it did, why would someone living on the 5400 block of Neva take 71st street home from Willow Springs anyway. Harlem avenue north of 63rd street and 63rd street east into Clearing was closed for sewer and water main work. This is what really happened as printed in the DesPlaines Valley News. I consolidated it a bit as it stretched over a few issues.
July 21st 1927 – Car accident takes life of 13 year old girl as car rolls over into old abandoned cut. A thirteen-year old girl was killed and five other members of an automobile party were injured, one perhaps fatally, last night, when in making a detour on Harlem avenue at 63rd street near the Community High School on their way to Clearing their machine ran into an old abandoned railroad cut and rolled over and over to the bottom. The dead girl is Anna Norkus, 5421 S. Neva, Archer Limits, who was crushed under the car and who was dead when taken out. Adam Levinski, 58 years old is at the Archer hospital with a badly fractured pelvis and with possible internal injuries. While the injury may prove fatal the physicians at the hospital say he has a good chance for recovery. August Norkus, father of the dead girl, incurred a broken colar bone which was set at the hospital. William Weisner and two girls Sophie Norkus, 16 years old and Loretta Gwozdz, 14, suffered minor injuries. All were treated at the Archer Hospital, Weisner staying over night and the girls being sent home. August Norkus and his two daughters were on their way with the others in Weisner's car to give bond for a man who had been arrested in Clearing. They came from the limits via Archer avenue to 63rd street, which was closed for the laying of water mains and sewer, and at Harlem they attempted to detour by riding south to 65th street. Passing 65th street in the darkness they ran into the old abandond cut, and at its edge their machine struck the guy wire of a telegraph pole so that it turned over and plunged down top first. Having passed 65th street the prarie flattens out into a smooth plateau and a few hundred feet farther on comes a steep drop as from a table’s edge to an old abandinded railroad cut, 25 feet deep. Summit police and County Highway Police and a number of volunteers were attracted to the scene and rescued the injured persons from the wrecked car. The body of the girl victim was taken to the mortuary of George A. Sobiesk whose ambulance had been called. An inquest was set for this afternoon. Mr. Sobiesk also will have charge of the funeral.
July 28th 1927 -Action was taken at the inquest held Thursday and Friday of last week at the Sobiesk mortuary in Argo to establish responsibility for the “death trap” at the 63rd and Harlem detour which on Wednesday night caused the immediate death of a young girl and the death on the following day of a man from Archer Limits. The girl victim was Anna Norkus and the man Adam Levinski, the latter passing away at Archer Hospital. Anna Norkus, a pupil of St. Joseph’s school, who had met with an instantaneous death at Harlem avenue and 66th street, when the automobile in which she was riding plunged into a deep pit, was buried from St. Joseph’s church Friday at 9 am. Burial took place at St. Casimir’s Lithuanian cemetery. The pastor, Rev Joseph A. Sehnke, celebrated the requiem high mass and preached the sermon in the church. The remains were escorted to the church and accompanied to the cemetery by the pastor and altar boys. May her soul rest in peace. The funeral was in charge of George Sobiesk.
Poor Mr. Andrejasich - he got the wrong Mary here!
Bruce
Re: Ghost Stories
Posted by:
Chris
(---.hsd1.il.comcast.net)
Date: November 01, 2008 11:05PM
Here's another perspective I've found:
http://weirdchicago.blogspot.com/2008/10/resurrection-mary-mary-miskowski.html
http://weirdchicago.blogspot.com/2008/10/resurrection-mary-mary-miskowski.html
Re: Ghost Stories
Posted by:
paw
(---.hsd1.il.comcast.net)
Date: November 03, 2008 12:10AM
Nice I used to do ghost tours of a sort for friends and family. I used that very book. st rita's, bachelors grove,ressurection, archer woods, st james etc. Intersting so it sounds like they were going the long way to clearing from garfield ridge. hmm where would the jail have been. Am I understanding correctly. They drove from archer and neva south on archer to 63rd and then est to harlem and then south to 66th.
Re: Ghost Stories
Posted by:
Bruce
(---.dsl.emhril.sbcglobal.net)
Date: November 03, 2008 01:15AM
I'll respond to Chris's response first.
Again, I am not going to validate Resurrection Mary either way - though one of the old timers I worked with saw something one night out on Archer past Fairmount that is very similar to the stories we have heard about the prom dressed ghost. The Mary ghost story is very similar to another ghost story that was printed in a book that came out of the East Coast decades before we ever heard of her in Chicago. The similarities are oddly alike. Taxi, hitchhiker, coat etc.
If there were a human counterpart to Mary, I would not start searching for her by arbitrarily looking for women named Mary in a census. It is widely understood in this area, that Mary was not this girl’s real name, but the name created by those who have seen her, and believe in her. In fact I think Mary was the name used in that older ghost story I speak of.
As an aside, I was working one Halloween night in the early to mid 90’s, sitting in the parking lot of Kegl's (now that Italian Restaurant) when a Blazer pulled up next to me and a guy and girl jumped out. They had the look of horror in their eyes, they were scared stiff. In fact the female who was wearing skintight jeans had wet her pants! They had seen Resurrection Mary on Archer coming out of the woods. I called for back up and went out in search of the white dressed ghost. The road became suddenly covered with fog, and I slowed down, observing a glowing figure trudging through the woods about 100 feet off the side of the road. I jumped out and took flight at the glowing figure, and it disappeared! Now I was a bit scared, but I don’t generally believe in ghosts, and I understood that Mary was killed on prom night not Halloween, so I searched. Then, to my surprise, I saw a person huddled up and lying behind a fallen tree. It appeared to be a female as it had long blond hair, a white dress, and was glowing like a glow in the dark T-shirt decal. Good ole’ Mary got a 357 magnum shoved in her ear, and needless to say she rose right away and didn’t disappear into the mist. In fact I made Mary cuss! She wasn’t looking for any rides this time!!!
It turned out that it was a prankster, a guy who had been doing this for years. He had a fog machine crew on the hill side of Archer, and a camera crew. The dress he was wearing was covered with the chemicals of a cracked open glow stick. I walked him to the road and his fellow pranksters came out of their hiding places. I thought it was great!! I, my partner, a MSD cop and two County Sheriff’s got a picture with Resurrection Mary. I let her go.
Unfortunately for Mary, the next night, he was arrested by the Forest Preserve police. Though I tried to talk the cop out of it, I was told to get lost. Mary was no more.
Many of these sightings are phony. They are pranksters. The story of the Ghost lights at Maple Lake? There are about five different versions of that, and people can not be trusted all of the time, especially hearsay many times removed. Do I have “the” answer? No, I have never seen ghost lights at Maple Lake. I have however seen lights while sitting at the lookout. They are the rear lights of a car on the other side traveling on the road opposite the lookout. No head lights either – as they were cops who blacked out the headlights, but unless you have the switch, the rear break lights still illuminate. Another version of the ghost lights tells of a glow like a light bulb on the other side of the lake. It changes hue, and moves around, and even goes out when someone attempts an approach.
Here is a challenge. Does anyone here know what that would be? I know what it is, because I grew up in the Willow Springs woods (Mount Forest).
Now as to Paw’s question. I don’t know where the police station was. I do know that at this time, it was faster to get to Clearing when one lived in Garfield Ridge, by traveling west on Archer, to the Summit Corner, take the turn, travel South on Archer to 63rd and go East. Harlem Avenue was not opened up yet for anything other then a horse wagon. At this time, they were putting in sewers and water mains. 63rd was closed also. These people detoured south on Harlem but did not know to turn on 65th street as it was a poor cinder covered road. They kept going straight South.
By the way, I will post this in the proper thread, but I have an image of Dorothy Storrs Ridder standing next to one of those post Bartlett “gates” off of Archer.
Bruce
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/03/2008 01:24AM by Bruce.
Again, I am not going to validate Resurrection Mary either way - though one of the old timers I worked with saw something one night out on Archer past Fairmount that is very similar to the stories we have heard about the prom dressed ghost. The Mary ghost story is very similar to another ghost story that was printed in a book that came out of the East Coast decades before we ever heard of her in Chicago. The similarities are oddly alike. Taxi, hitchhiker, coat etc.
If there were a human counterpart to Mary, I would not start searching for her by arbitrarily looking for women named Mary in a census. It is widely understood in this area, that Mary was not this girl’s real name, but the name created by those who have seen her, and believe in her. In fact I think Mary was the name used in that older ghost story I speak of.
As an aside, I was working one Halloween night in the early to mid 90’s, sitting in the parking lot of Kegl's (now that Italian Restaurant) when a Blazer pulled up next to me and a guy and girl jumped out. They had the look of horror in their eyes, they were scared stiff. In fact the female who was wearing skintight jeans had wet her pants! They had seen Resurrection Mary on Archer coming out of the woods. I called for back up and went out in search of the white dressed ghost. The road became suddenly covered with fog, and I slowed down, observing a glowing figure trudging through the woods about 100 feet off the side of the road. I jumped out and took flight at the glowing figure, and it disappeared! Now I was a bit scared, but I don’t generally believe in ghosts, and I understood that Mary was killed on prom night not Halloween, so I searched. Then, to my surprise, I saw a person huddled up and lying behind a fallen tree. It appeared to be a female as it had long blond hair, a white dress, and was glowing like a glow in the dark T-shirt decal. Good ole’ Mary got a 357 magnum shoved in her ear, and needless to say she rose right away and didn’t disappear into the mist. In fact I made Mary cuss! She wasn’t looking for any rides this time!!!
It turned out that it was a prankster, a guy who had been doing this for years. He had a fog machine crew on the hill side of Archer, and a camera crew. The dress he was wearing was covered with the chemicals of a cracked open glow stick. I walked him to the road and his fellow pranksters came out of their hiding places. I thought it was great!! I, my partner, a MSD cop and two County Sheriff’s got a picture with Resurrection Mary. I let her go.
Unfortunately for Mary, the next night, he was arrested by the Forest Preserve police. Though I tried to talk the cop out of it, I was told to get lost. Mary was no more.
Many of these sightings are phony. They are pranksters. The story of the Ghost lights at Maple Lake? There are about five different versions of that, and people can not be trusted all of the time, especially hearsay many times removed. Do I have “the” answer? No, I have never seen ghost lights at Maple Lake. I have however seen lights while sitting at the lookout. They are the rear lights of a car on the other side traveling on the road opposite the lookout. No head lights either – as they were cops who blacked out the headlights, but unless you have the switch, the rear break lights still illuminate. Another version of the ghost lights tells of a glow like a light bulb on the other side of the lake. It changes hue, and moves around, and even goes out when someone attempts an approach.
Here is a challenge. Does anyone here know what that would be? I know what it is, because I grew up in the Willow Springs woods (Mount Forest).
Now as to Paw’s question. I don’t know where the police station was. I do know that at this time, it was faster to get to Clearing when one lived in Garfield Ridge, by traveling west on Archer, to the Summit Corner, take the turn, travel South on Archer to 63rd and go East. Harlem Avenue was not opened up yet for anything other then a horse wagon. At this time, they were putting in sewers and water mains. 63rd was closed also. These people detoured south on Harlem but did not know to turn on 65th street as it was a poor cinder covered road. They kept going straight South.
By the way, I will post this in the proper thread, but I have an image of Dorothy Storrs Ridder standing next to one of those post Bartlett “gates” off of Archer.
Bruce
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/03/2008 01:24AM by Bruce.
Re: Ghost Stories
Posted by:
Bruce
(76.29.76.---)
Date: November 30, 2008 10:26PM
Just to follow up on the above post. Paw, I think the police station they were referring to on the news story was the railroad police station for the Clearing Yards. I am not sure if there was a Chicago Police outpost there at that time.
I challenged everyone to try and guess what accounted for at lease some of those ghost lights seen at Maple Lake. These lights are reported by some to appear as a white light that changes hue, and then goes out like a light bulb when one tries to approach to follow the mysterious entity. Well, it is not widely known to outsiders, but those who grew up in the woods know that poachers sometimes frequent the woods at night. Most of these guys are bow hunters. They mount lights to their bows (like a bulb from a modified 6 volt Camping lamp), and shine the dear to make easy targets. When one tries to approach the mysterious light, it suddenly disappears - and now we know why. There are however, other hunters who are doing the deer population thinning legally, and by the authority of the Forest Preserve District. These guys also use bows and lights, and I have personally seen them leaving the Maple Lake West entrance at 95th street with a load of carcasses. This is probably what most of these ghost lights are that people have seen across the lake from the overlook.
Bruce
I challenged everyone to try and guess what accounted for at lease some of those ghost lights seen at Maple Lake. These lights are reported by some to appear as a white light that changes hue, and then goes out like a light bulb when one tries to approach to follow the mysterious entity. Well, it is not widely known to outsiders, but those who grew up in the woods know that poachers sometimes frequent the woods at night. Most of these guys are bow hunters. They mount lights to their bows (like a bulb from a modified 6 volt Camping lamp), and shine the dear to make easy targets. When one tries to approach the mysterious light, it suddenly disappears - and now we know why. There are however, other hunters who are doing the deer population thinning legally, and by the authority of the Forest Preserve District. These guys also use bows and lights, and I have personally seen them leaving the Maple Lake West entrance at 95th street with a load of carcasses. This is probably what most of these ghost lights are that people have seen across the lake from the overlook.
Bruce
Re: Ghost Stories
Posted by:
adamselzer
(---.dsl.chcgil.ameritech.net)
Date: December 01, 2008 09:14PM
Hi from the Weird Chicago blog guy. Just to throw some things around:
It's generally agreed that the ghost, when talking to people, says her name is Mary; I think it goes back to the Jerry Palus affair. If I remember right, he said the girl to whom he gave a ride called herself Mary.
HOWEVER, I would say that if the whole thing is anything more than an urban legend,(and this is a MAJOR "if" - similar stories have been going around since something like the third century BC) "Resurrection Mary" is probably a collective name for more than one ghost. The notion that 12 year old Anna Norkus is the ghostly girl hitching rides is faintly ludicrous (even if we assume, hypothetically, that the ghost is real); however hard people try to claim that she called herself "Mary," the girl wasn't quite 13, for goodness sake. But not every ghost reported around the cemetery is a hitcher; there's also a girl who gets hit by cars, then vanishes, nearby.
In running the blog, writing the Weird Chicago books, running the tours, and all the research that goes with it, I've met people who have (or claim to have) first-hand experiences with just about every major ghost in the area - but I've yet to meet anyone personally who had a first-hand encounter with Mary, except for one guy on the tour who said he saw a girl with dancing shoes slung over her shoulder - and I seem to recall that he was a bit tipsy.
-----
www.adamselzer.com
www.chicagounbelievable.com
It's generally agreed that the ghost, when talking to people, says her name is Mary; I think it goes back to the Jerry Palus affair. If I remember right, he said the girl to whom he gave a ride called herself Mary.
HOWEVER, I would say that if the whole thing is anything more than an urban legend,(and this is a MAJOR "if" - similar stories have been going around since something like the third century BC) "Resurrection Mary" is probably a collective name for more than one ghost. The notion that 12 year old Anna Norkus is the ghostly girl hitching rides is faintly ludicrous (even if we assume, hypothetically, that the ghost is real); however hard people try to claim that she called herself "Mary," the girl wasn't quite 13, for goodness sake. But not every ghost reported around the cemetery is a hitcher; there's also a girl who gets hit by cars, then vanishes, nearby.
In running the blog, writing the Weird Chicago books, running the tours, and all the research that goes with it, I've met people who have (or claim to have) first-hand experiences with just about every major ghost in the area - but I've yet to meet anyone personally who had a first-hand encounter with Mary, except for one guy on the tour who said he saw a girl with dancing shoes slung over her shoulder - and I seem to recall that he was a bit tipsy.
-----
www.adamselzer.com
www.chicagounbelievable.com
Re: Ghost Stories
Posted by:
Bruce
(---.dsl.emhril.sbcglobal.net)
Date: December 02, 2008 03:41AM
Hi,
Thanks for the response, and yes I agree. My sister in Law says she saw Mary, but again, I think there have been quite a few fake ghosts out there. The 12 year old Norkus thing is a dead end. The story printed in Ursula Bielski's book is not accurate. Part of it is, as her body was in fact put in storage at Resurrection for a time, and some of the other points that were addressed are fine. The biggest issue with the transcribing of the events is the supposed route back to the Archer Limits that she was relayed from the Summit resident where the theory came from. If one were to travel from Willow Springs to the Archer Limits in early to mid 1928 (or later for that matter, one would not have been able to travel on Harlem north of 71st street, at least not in an automobile. And why in the world would someone living off of Archer and Harlem take that route anyway even today - To avoid traffic jams through Argo? In 1928, Harlem from Archer to 63rd was all torn to pieces for sewer and water mains.
To Ursula's credit however, she seems to have written these stories in her book in a manner where it is obvious that she is merely relaying hear say and is not trying to cement these different events into history as documented fact.
As an aside,
I was actually told a Mary story by a very credible witness whom I worked with at the police department - yes one of the old timers!
As for myself, I was snooping around that old abandoned home that used to sit off of German Church Road at the top of the ravine where the Grimes sisters were found. This was before that house burned, and yes - I actually entered the garage below the house and the darned seafoam green convertible was still parked in it, having been abandoned for over a decade. Those people took off out of that house and literally left the furniture - and I don't know why. I was told it was because of hauntings from the spirits of the two murdered sisters. In any case, when I was a kid, I saw something stare at me through the main living room window of that house that I will never forget, and I never ran so fast in my life!
That story is for another day.
Bruce
Thanks for the response, and yes I agree. My sister in Law says she saw Mary, but again, I think there have been quite a few fake ghosts out there. The 12 year old Norkus thing is a dead end. The story printed in Ursula Bielski's book is not accurate. Part of it is, as her body was in fact put in storage at Resurrection for a time, and some of the other points that were addressed are fine. The biggest issue with the transcribing of the events is the supposed route back to the Archer Limits that she was relayed from the Summit resident where the theory came from. If one were to travel from Willow Springs to the Archer Limits in early to mid 1928 (or later for that matter, one would not have been able to travel on Harlem north of 71st street, at least not in an automobile. And why in the world would someone living off of Archer and Harlem take that route anyway even today - To avoid traffic jams through Argo? In 1928, Harlem from Archer to 63rd was all torn to pieces for sewer and water mains.
To Ursula's credit however, she seems to have written these stories in her book in a manner where it is obvious that she is merely relaying hear say and is not trying to cement these different events into history as documented fact.
As an aside,
I was actually told a Mary story by a very credible witness whom I worked with at the police department - yes one of the old timers!
As for myself, I was snooping around that old abandoned home that used to sit off of German Church Road at the top of the ravine where the Grimes sisters were found. This was before that house burned, and yes - I actually entered the garage below the house and the darned seafoam green convertible was still parked in it, having been abandoned for over a decade. Those people took off out of that house and literally left the furniture - and I don't know why. I was told it was because of hauntings from the spirits of the two murdered sisters. In any case, when I was a kid, I saw something stare at me through the main living room window of that house that I will never forget, and I never ran so fast in my life!
That story is for another day.
Bruce
Re: Ghost Stories
Posted by:
paw
(---.hsd1.il.comcast.net)
Date: December 02, 2008 05:55PM
Theres also a lit blue soda machine which is wierd by the lake or at least there was a while back. freaked me out.
Re: Ghost Stories
Posted by:
luis_alejo50
(---.ccs.ras.cantv.net)
Date: January 22, 2009 11:25PM
Bruce,
So.... what did you see in that house when you were a kid that scared you that bad?
Cheers,
L.
So.... what did you see in that house when you were a kid that scared you that bad?
Cheers,
L.
Re: Ghost Stories
Posted by:
Bruce
(---.dsl.emhril.sbcglobal.net)
Date: January 23, 2009 04:43AM
My friend and I were about 50 feet away form the front main windows. I guess this was a living room. We were just staring at the windows as we had recently arrived from inspecting the car in the open garage on the north side of the house, and this face swung out from the edge of the window into view from inside and looked right at us. The face however was like a ghoul - just a white oval pattern with black holes where the eyes would be and a hole for the mouth. Very similar to the blank face masks used in the movie Pink Floyd The Wall. That's all I remember as we ran like hell. We didn't stop until we were in the middle of the old Bridewell Juvenile Farm property north of the 79th street, which is due north of where this house was on 83rd.
I did not go back to that house for a few years after that. In fact not until after it had burned. The floors were still intact, the tiles on the bathroom floor, stairs leading to the basement, some of the walls were present and of course the car was still in the garage but had quite a bit of vandalism done to it. I would never walk into the basement as it was unlit, but in the garage (it was a drive that went under the house and the garage was at basement level) where the car was, contained a small room with a workshop and bench. There were tools in the thing when I had first seen it, and at this second time, it was basically looted out. A while later they tore that house down and put in a new subdivision. I never was able to find out why those people who lived there just up and left without taking their belongings. My friend had been in the house in the past and told me the place was fully furnished.
Ghost stories aside, this may have been a case where the owner was old and died with no family, and the county took it over because of tax default. The face I saw was more then likely some squatter trying to scare kids away, but I didn't know that back then.
I ran into a guy about my age later on in life, and he told me of an experience he had at that house himself as a teenager. I don't remember the story, but it had to do with the swamp that was just north of the house. I'm sure it was a nice pond at one time, but in the 1970's it was an overgrown frog patch filled with duckweed. Strange also, in that there was a railroad box car sitting within the trees to the west of the house filed with lumber. I believe it was lacking the wheels. Someone must have moved it there to be used as a storage shed, but it was a true wooden boxcar. Must have been the owners of the house that moved it there years prior. It was in real bad shape.
Bruce
I did not go back to that house for a few years after that. In fact not until after it had burned. The floors were still intact, the tiles on the bathroom floor, stairs leading to the basement, some of the walls were present and of course the car was still in the garage but had quite a bit of vandalism done to it. I would never walk into the basement as it was unlit, but in the garage (it was a drive that went under the house and the garage was at basement level) where the car was, contained a small room with a workshop and bench. There were tools in the thing when I had first seen it, and at this second time, it was basically looted out. A while later they tore that house down and put in a new subdivision. I never was able to find out why those people who lived there just up and left without taking their belongings. My friend had been in the house in the past and told me the place was fully furnished.
Ghost stories aside, this may have been a case where the owner was old and died with no family, and the county took it over because of tax default. The face I saw was more then likely some squatter trying to scare kids away, but I didn't know that back then.
I ran into a guy about my age later on in life, and he told me of an experience he had at that house himself as a teenager. I don't remember the story, but it had to do with the swamp that was just north of the house. I'm sure it was a nice pond at one time, but in the 1970's it was an overgrown frog patch filled with duckweed. Strange also, in that there was a railroad box car sitting within the trees to the west of the house filed with lumber. I believe it was lacking the wheels. Someone must have moved it there to be used as a storage shed, but it was a true wooden boxcar. Must have been the owners of the house that moved it there years prior. It was in real bad shape.
Bruce
Re: Ghost Stories
Posted by:
luis_alejo50
(200.8.187.---)
Date: January 24, 2009 04:02PM
Bruce,
Txs for replying. Scary indeed, even if it was just somebody trying to scare you guys away.
Since I´ve never been to Chicago, I have tried to locate the exact place where the sisters´ bodies were found based on info gathered from the internet and using Google Earth.
Would you mind checking the coordinates listed below and letting me know if that´s the right spot?. If it´s not, could you send me the coordinates to the correct one?
Cheers!
L.
41°44'18.82"N
87°54'53.06"O
Txs for replying. Scary indeed, even if it was just somebody trying to scare you guys away.
Since I´ve never been to Chicago, I have tried to locate the exact place where the sisters´ bodies were found based on info gathered from the internet and using Google Earth.
Would you mind checking the coordinates listed below and letting me know if that´s the right spot?. If it´s not, could you send me the coordinates to the correct one?
Cheers!
L.
41°44'18.82"N
87°54'53.06"O
Re: Ghost Stories
Posted by:
Bruce
(---.dsl.emhril.sbcglobal.net)
Date: January 24, 2009 06:50PM
That spot is a half block too far West. This is the exact location. On the north side of the road at the ravine that passes through there.
41°44'18.75"N
87°54'43.81"W
41°44'18.75"N
87°54'43.81"W
Re: Ghost Stories
Posted by:
bwalsh
(---.dsl.chcgil.ameritech.net)
Date: January 24, 2009 08:12PM
Bruce,
I used to go ice skating at the Willow Ice Chalet (now it's a sports center) which is on the NW corner of German Church and Wolf Rds. Coming out late at night I always got the creeps. As you know, it was no where near as built up then as it is now. But I thought where the bodies were found was on the south side of German Church, across from the entrance to the Chalet, no?
I used to go ice skating at the Willow Ice Chalet (now it's a sports center) which is on the NW corner of German Church and Wolf Rds. Coming out late at night I always got the creeps. As you know, it was no where near as built up then as it is now. But I thought where the bodies were found was on the south side of German Church, across from the entrance to the Chalet, no?
Re: Ghost Stories
Posted by:
Bruce
(---.dsl.emhril.sbcglobal.net)
Date: January 24, 2009 09:57PM
No that is not correct. They were found on the North side of German Church Road along side the guard rail at that ravine I gave the coordinates of.
This web site has the best and most accurate account of the Grimes murders I have seen. The ghost house is even mentioned.
http://www.prairieghosts.com/grimes.html
Bruce
p.s. when I was on the Willow Springs Police force, the chief (if you want to call him that) tried to get the County to let him and a State's Attorney reopen this case. They got the go-ahead from the county but with no funding. He and his co-investigator could not get the family to allow him to exhume the graves for a second autopsy, plus they had no funds to travel. They would have had to go out of state to do interviews. I wanted to get involved, but the chief would not talk too much about it after his first TV interview. He probably would have screwed it up anyway.
This web site has the best and most accurate account of the Grimes murders I have seen. The ghost house is even mentioned.
http://www.prairieghosts.com/grimes.html
Bruce
p.s. when I was on the Willow Springs Police force, the chief (if you want to call him that) tried to get the County to let him and a State's Attorney reopen this case. They got the go-ahead from the county but with no funding. He and his co-investigator could not get the family to allow him to exhume the graves for a second autopsy, plus they had no funds to travel. They would have had to go out of state to do interviews. I wanted to get involved, but the chief would not talk too much about it after his first TV interview. He probably would have screwed it up anyway.
Re: Ghost Stories
Posted by:
Bruce
(---.dsl.emhril.sbcglobal.net)
Date: April 11, 2009 04:46PM
I found this which shows the location site of the Grimes Sisters.
Bruce
Bruce
Re: Ghost Stories
Posted by:
fleurblue
(---.proxy.aol.com)
Date: July 25, 2009 12:46AM
My mom lived near Wood and Armitage Sts. in Chicago in the '40s. Her family lived in a third floor apartment, in the front half of a large attic.
My uncle used to work nights and come up the 3 flights of stairs to their apartment. As he neared the attic level he heard footsteps behind him. He called out to see who it was. There was no answer, but a white figure passed beside him and sailed into the dark attic.
He said he felt a cold gust of air as the figure passed. He was upset by the incident and told my mom and grandmother in the morning.
My grandmother laughed and told him he was just imagining things or was tired. But days later it happened to the landlord. He said he heard the footsteps and called my grandmother's name, thinking she may have gone to the basement shed for something. No answer. The same figure and gust of cool air passed him.
He didn't tell anyone until my grandmother mentioned it--then he told of the same experience and she realized my uncle was telling the truth.
Later they heard that a former owner of the building, a woman, committed suicide in the attic.
This was a much requested story by my friends on Halloween. I do know that when I brought the subject up, my usually jovial uncle would get very sad and quiet and change the subject.
My uncle used to work nights and come up the 3 flights of stairs to their apartment. As he neared the attic level he heard footsteps behind him. He called out to see who it was. There was no answer, but a white figure passed beside him and sailed into the dark attic.
He said he felt a cold gust of air as the figure passed. He was upset by the incident and told my mom and grandmother in the morning.
My grandmother laughed and told him he was just imagining things or was tired. But days later it happened to the landlord. He said he heard the footsteps and called my grandmother's name, thinking she may have gone to the basement shed for something. No answer. The same figure and gust of cool air passed him.
He didn't tell anyone until my grandmother mentioned it--then he told of the same experience and she realized my uncle was telling the truth.
Later they heard that a former owner of the building, a woman, committed suicide in the attic.
This was a much requested story by my friends on Halloween. I do know that when I brought the subject up, my usually jovial uncle would get very sad and quiet and change the subject.
Re: Ghost Stories
Posted by:
Richard Stachowski
(---.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net)
Date: July 25, 2009 08:45PM
German Church Road at Willow springs road was an indian burial grounds.That's how it is shown on an old map on the internet. I think it's on Chicago Encyclopedia at "Maps".
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/29/2009 01:01AM by Richard Stachowski.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/29/2009 01:01AM by Richard Stachowski.
Re: Ghost Stories
Posted by:
Bruce
(---.dsl.emhril.ameritech.net)
Date: July 27, 2009 02:11PM
There were quite a few burial mounds in that area. The lands of the healing waters was supposed to be near the retention pond in the subdivision off the intersection you speak of. That information came double hear-say on a map transcribed by Tom Greenwood (deceased). Tom thought himself to be an Indian, of which I think he was a slight bit, however he learned how to be an Indian from Ray Douglas of Bedford Park.
Bruce
Bruce
Re: Ghost Stories
Posted by:
adamselzer
(---.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net)
Date: August 06, 2009 11:31AM
If Indian Burial Grounds were anything like they are in "poltergeist," every archaeologist in the country would be #$%^ed.
My usual experience in the ghost business is that "Indian burial ground" is the basic go-to for when you want a back story for a ghost story that doesn't really have much historical backing (it's the American equivalent of the British "former monastery where a disgraced nun was buried alive when they found out she was pregnant" story, which occasionally shows up around here, too). This isn't to say that every ghost story revolving around Indian burial grounds is instantly crap, but it's one of those stories that, in my experience, renders the story a bit questionable off the bat, like when a restaurant owner tells me his employees have seen "a woman in a white gown." It's sort of like the when someone kills their own kids and tells the cops it was a "bushy haired stranger." From what I've heard, the old "bushy haired stranger" story is a real giveaway to cops that the witness is lying. In the ghost world, I tend to think the same when I hear "woman in white," "kid playing with a ball," or "indian burial ground." Then again, there must be SOME bushy haired strangers out there committing crimes, and sometimes the woman in white stories DO turn out not to be publicity stunts.
btw - I have a book on all this stuff out in a few weeks: YOUR NEIGHBORHOOD GIVES ME THE CREEPS: True Tales of an Accidental Ghost Hunter. http://www.adamselzer.com/creeps.html
My usual experience in the ghost business is that "Indian burial ground" is the basic go-to for when you want a back story for a ghost story that doesn't really have much historical backing (it's the American equivalent of the British "former monastery where a disgraced nun was buried alive when they found out she was pregnant" story, which occasionally shows up around here, too). This isn't to say that every ghost story revolving around Indian burial grounds is instantly crap, but it's one of those stories that, in my experience, renders the story a bit questionable off the bat, like when a restaurant owner tells me his employees have seen "a woman in a white gown." It's sort of like the when someone kills their own kids and tells the cops it was a "bushy haired stranger." From what I've heard, the old "bushy haired stranger" story is a real giveaway to cops that the witness is lying. In the ghost world, I tend to think the same when I hear "woman in white," "kid playing with a ball," or "indian burial ground." Then again, there must be SOME bushy haired strangers out there committing crimes, and sometimes the woman in white stories DO turn out not to be publicity stunts.
btw - I have a book on all this stuff out in a few weeks: YOUR NEIGHBORHOOD GIVES ME THE CREEPS: True Tales of an Accidental Ghost Hunter. http://www.adamselzer.com/creeps.html
Re: Ghost Stories
Posted by:
Bruce
(---.hsd1.il.comcast.net)
Date: August 25, 2009 10:24PM
I have not been following this board as I should be. I should say, the auto notify is not working I guess.
Yes, the woman in white, and the usual stereotypical ghost stories are an instant red flag just as original Titanic items with "RMS Titanic" printed on them are. The Resurrection Mary story is another cooked up tale from the crypt.
As for Indian Burial Grounds, I totally agree. There was someone roaming around Willow springs looking for the ghost stories, of which there are none. I coulkd invent a few, but that is it. I told this producer that the places that held supposed ghost sightings (as in the abandoned house on German Church Road) have all been torn down. And no - the tavern across the street from the Willowbrook was not a Capone hangout, nor was McErlane's body buried behind it. That place was built by Mr. Spaitis (last name spelled wrong) in about 1928-or 29. The upstairs contains many rooms, but this is where his family lived, not whores. What the rooms were used for after Spaitis sold the place I don't know. Maybe the whores came in later, I don't know.
I can tell you the location of two confirmed Indian burial mound locations in Willow Springs, and these hold no ghost stories. One was generally at the corner of Archer and what is now Mound street, where the newly constructed building stands on the N/E side of Archer. Back in the early 1900's, before Willow Springs erected a school housem, the kids used to go to a wooden framed school at Archer and Kean Avenue. Mr. Yost, a long deceased town resident walked to school to Kean Avenue, passing this mound along the way. As the mound eroded either by people taking the dirt or some other means, some of the bones became exposed. The kids used to pull the bones out and play with them.
The second spot was where the old Ziarco Ice Cream shop was at. I forgot the name of the guy who built it, but it was erected after the 1897 or 98 fire that wiped out Willow Springs. When the builder was excavating for the foundation, he dug up bones with relics. These relics were actually display for some time in Banks and Kollers grocery next door for some time. This building was the last one to go off the N/E corner. It was more notably the connecting building on the north side of a tavern with an old hotel upstairs. The real estate office for that new Willow Springs condo development is located on the exact same site.
Not only are these locations seeded in oral histories but they were recorded by Allbert Sharff in his Indian explorations in the early 1900's.
I worked midnights as a cop for many years in Willow, and I have seen a lot of strange things out there, but never a ghost - not a real one anyway. Some said that the old firehouse in the station on Archer was haunted by the ghost of Diane Masters - not!
I can't wait to see your book.
Bruce
Yes, the woman in white, and the usual stereotypical ghost stories are an instant red flag just as original Titanic items with "RMS Titanic" printed on them are. The Resurrection Mary story is another cooked up tale from the crypt.
As for Indian Burial Grounds, I totally agree. There was someone roaming around Willow springs looking for the ghost stories, of which there are none. I coulkd invent a few, but that is it. I told this producer that the places that held supposed ghost sightings (as in the abandoned house on German Church Road) have all been torn down. And no - the tavern across the street from the Willowbrook was not a Capone hangout, nor was McErlane's body buried behind it. That place was built by Mr. Spaitis (last name spelled wrong) in about 1928-or 29. The upstairs contains many rooms, but this is where his family lived, not whores. What the rooms were used for after Spaitis sold the place I don't know. Maybe the whores came in later, I don't know.
I can tell you the location of two confirmed Indian burial mound locations in Willow Springs, and these hold no ghost stories. One was generally at the corner of Archer and what is now Mound street, where the newly constructed building stands on the N/E side of Archer. Back in the early 1900's, before Willow Springs erected a school housem, the kids used to go to a wooden framed school at Archer and Kean Avenue. Mr. Yost, a long deceased town resident walked to school to Kean Avenue, passing this mound along the way. As the mound eroded either by people taking the dirt or some other means, some of the bones became exposed. The kids used to pull the bones out and play with them.
The second spot was where the old Ziarco Ice Cream shop was at. I forgot the name of the guy who built it, but it was erected after the 1897 or 98 fire that wiped out Willow Springs. When the builder was excavating for the foundation, he dug up bones with relics. These relics were actually display for some time in Banks and Kollers grocery next door for some time. This building was the last one to go off the N/E corner. It was more notably the connecting building on the north side of a tavern with an old hotel upstairs. The real estate office for that new Willow Springs condo development is located on the exact same site.
Not only are these locations seeded in oral histories but they were recorded by Allbert Sharff in his Indian explorations in the early 1900's.
I worked midnights as a cop for many years in Willow, and I have seen a lot of strange things out there, but never a ghost - not a real one anyway. Some said that the old firehouse in the station on Archer was haunted by the ghost of Diane Masters - not!
I can't wait to see your book.
Bruce
